Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion.
Time, what IS time? Isn't it mearly a human concept, that allows us to formulate a sequence of events? Does time exist? What if time did not exist, that it is simply a concept of our imagination. And that every event that ever happend, or that would ever happened and that IS happening occupies a single instance? What if this whole existance and everything between the big bang and the big crush (if that exists) occupies only an instant, an infinitly small moment in time?
Just some thoughts.
Time, what IS time? Isn't it mearly a human concept, that allows us to formulate a sequence of events? Does time exist? What if time did not exist, that it is simply a concept of our imagination. And that every event that ever happend, or that would ever happened and that IS happening occupies a single instance? What if this whole existance and everything between the big bang and the big crush (if that exists) occupies only an instant, an infinitly small moment in time?
Just some thoughts.
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Re: Time
Thu, September 16, 2004 - 10:54 AMTime is a perceptual artifact that comes from our attachment to the mind and the five senses as 'me'.
The past is a string of memories and the future is those memories projected forward as expectation.
The only place is Now, encompassed within Eternity.
To know this as an experiential reality try and move beyond your attachment to form. Form comes and goes as if a perceptual holograph and creates the illusion of something passing before you. Seek and you shall find that there is an infinite stillness from which all form arises and that is not different from what you Truly are.
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Re: Time
Thu, September 16, 2004 - 5:41 PMHaving drunk the glitter juice of the Upper Amazon more than once I see NOW as a gateway to the infinite; just rip through the veil. It takes practice and trust. It's sad this Kulture holds a lock on gateways. Anyone over twelve ought to have the option and anyone over 26 ought to be required to rip it.
The extra dimensions are necessary.
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Unsu...
Re: Time
Fri, September 17, 2004 - 2:36 PMTime is aRt.
Bu our human concept we do from a sequence of events based on OUR definition of Time. But to the Universal law Time I think is relevent to it own sequence. A thousand years to US could pass by in one day in the Universe. Life is Art. Time is aRt.
Everythng that moves, breathes and that lives are all wavelengths of different proportions. Some resonate very long.... some resonate very short. A star is an example of pure art. Pure Time. The time it takes for a star to form is expereinced differently by that star, then to us. So yes, our calculation of the Time for a stars creation is based on our own human concept according to the limitations of our understanding. Yet, there is a 'formation' that does take place. That is a reality. There are different band waves that interact accrodingly to create that star. We feel band waves, differently than a star, or even a lizard perhaps. WHen we say it talkes thousands of years to form a star, that is OUR percetpion. To the Universe it may be just one day, and again that is my perception.
All in all, no matter what length we describe creation as being, or what length a day (passing of our planet by the Sun) is or what length the Universe is feeling, there is a series of events that take place for creation to exist. For me (and mamny) creation is the everytihng, is pure art. So for me, Time is Art.
A phenomenon of Time is that it (we) are all happening at once. When someone asks me the question, "SO whats happening?" I always say, "...everything at once."
A good example of everyting being in the now is this;
When we look into the Universe at night and behold the many stars, we are also looking into the past, right Now. Many of the stars that we 'see' have long since died, so we are indeed experiencing, at tleast the past, in the now... yet at the same time the furture is yet to come. If the future is happening right now, its just alittle more difficult for us to see. Life truly is a paradox.
More stars are yet to be born, and great shifts are yet to take place. But everything that we are is based on Now. Today is yesterdays tomorrow.
One thing I know for sure is that Time is NOT money. Time is aRt.
Thank you for the thought-provoking questions, I love it.
xo
lana -
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Unsu...
Re: Time
Mon, September 20, 2004 - 5:23 PMI am so sorry for all the damned spelling mistakes.... I realize that it is hard to follow the thread when it is all wound up and dishevelled in some areas of its line.
I have been studying the 'concepts' of Time deeply the last few years... and I was excited to share my thoughts in a rather fast type. ...O....
Time is like music... different depending on the song. Different waves, different band widths, different meters etc... its how we feel in the moment that counts.
Where ever there is a wave... there is Time.
Time is Art. ...and like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. We can make a minute last forever, or day last a minute. Its all in the feel... in the wave.
xo
Lana
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Re: Time
Fri, November 12, 2004 - 11:33 AMA helpful thing to remember about "Time" is that it is inseperable from "space". The simplest definition of time is the "rate of change" of some sort of object, clock, hourglass, radioactive substance, whatever. And change involves movement through space. The clock hands move, the sand falls, everything in the universe is constantly moving, Always. Therefore, you never have a scenario where "time" is passing, yet nothing is moving.
Since you always have "time" with some sort of movement through space, science communities use the term "space-time" to talk about either. No movement without time, no time without movement.
Time is also coupled with what's called "entropy" which can be hard to explain.. Basically it's that "disorder increases with time", or "order decreases with time." Things 'lose' energy (through friction, heat, whatever) with time, they don't 'gain' it (without something else 'losing' more). It ties in to order in the classic example of a mug shattering. It's a lot easier for a mug to shatter onto the floor, than it is for a shattered mug to "become whole" again.
So, if you think of time as being coupled with "movement": everything in the universe is moving, movement takes energy, things use energy as they move, or time goes 'forward' as things 'lose' energy.
As long as things in the universe are still moving, time will still be going forward.
Hope this isn't confusing or too light on the subject...couldn't think of a quick way to explain it without filling up pages. Hope it helps some of your thinkings about time! -
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Re: Time
Fri, November 12, 2004 - 1:31 PMLooking at my post above, just wanted clarify something.
I made a mistake as far as talking about time moving "forward". I more meant that, as long as everything in the universe is moving, time will be Going. Time will keep 'happening' if you will. No direction, necessarily, but it will continue to happen.
The perceived "direction" of time, and seperation into past/future is still an illusory construct of the mind, just like Trevor above was mentioning.
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Re: Time
Mon, November 15, 2004 - 12:04 PMWhat about the existence of a measure of time in a universe devoid of matter? Consider the ADM 3+1 split in General Relativity. Here, we foliate spacetime into space+time, with time described by some scalar function that's compatible with the foliation. Matter need never enter our description (this is why you can still define time in vacuum universe models). -
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Re: Time
Wed, November 17, 2004 - 1:41 PMHmm, i got nothin'! I'm not familiar with the ADM 3+1 split in General Relativity. Google brought up a couple of things but I can't find much provide the general idea.
Know of any sites that give a good overview of the ideas? Or is there anything you could help fill out? I'm not familiar with what role time plays when matter is absent.
I'll try doing a search on vacuum universe models and see what else comes up. Thanks!! -
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Re: Time
Thu, November 18, 2004 - 12:20 PMFor a quick run-down of the ADM split you might want to check out online:
relativity.livingreviews.org/Art...html
In section 2.1 of this paper, the author outlines the basic program for breaking spacetime into space+time. As is described in the article, the lapse function and the shift function set the "flow of time" in the spacetime.
Also, eqs. 14 and 15 show how the dynamics of the spacetime geometry are constrained with respect to the matter distribution and the foliation of the spacetime. Now, Einstein's equation says that G_{ab}=kT_{ab}, where G_{ab} is Einstein's tensor (describing geometry) and T_{ab} is the stress-energy tensor (describing matter). If the universe is devoid of matter (or energy), then T_{ab}=0 and G_{ab}=0. However, you can still have constrained dynamics since the left-hand sides of eqs. 14 and 15 need not be zero. Therefore, a notion of time evolution can exist in vacuum spacetimes.
The existence of a foliation of spacetime is a general result of the fact that globally hyperbolic spacetimes (those that satisfy the Einstein equations) have the topology RxM, where M is some 3-manifold.
The ADM split also makes an appearance in the Cauchy Problem in GR.
Some good offline references for all this stuff are:
Misner, Thorne, Wheeler - Gravitation
Hawking, Ellis - The Large Scale Structure of Spacetime
Wald - General Relativity
Hope this helps!
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Re: Time
Fri, November 19, 2004 - 8:58 AMIf you took away the human consciousness observing the supposed vacuum universe, would time still exist? -
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Re: Time
Sat, December 11, 2004 - 11:25 AMI don't think it would exist. Our human consciousness (and by that I mean our awareness of our perceptions) are what create time and space. Without that, there is no way to "perceive" time. -
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Re: Time
Mon, December 13, 2004 - 2:43 PMOr maybe if conscious beings are removed from the universe, then the meaning of time would become a mute point. How can what we perceive as time exist if we don't exist? -
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Re: Time
Mon, December 13, 2004 - 6:40 PMInteresting, Erufailon. Now we're getting into a definition of existance. Perhaps a new thread? :)
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